Milt Evans on Enrollment
Contents
Background
On March 15, 2008, team Quest, of the Jawbone division, Atlantic region of MDI, conducted an interview of Milt Evans on the topic of enrollment. Milt is known throughout the region as a man who has been around since the beginning (he participated in the Men Sex and Power event, later renamed the Sterling Men's Weekend, in 1983) and a man who is responsible for hundreds of other men doing the weekend.
The interview was videotaped and made available on YouTube to MDI members to watch.
After approving the use of the videos for this purpose with Milt and a couple other men on Quest, I typed in this transcript.
The format of these transcripts is a bit like a play script, but with initials of men instead of character's names.
ME is Milt Evans (the man on the right in the videos), JR is Jeremy Richman. M1 through M5 are unidentified voices, some of which might not be distinct from each other or from the identified men. Something that is done and not said is in (parentheses). [Square brackets] enclose text that is implied or paraphrased. Editorial comments are in {curly braces} and include the initials of the commenter (so far only "RM", Robert Munafo)
Numbers in brackets like "[1:23]" indicate the time in minutes and seconds from the beginning of each video segment (as they appeared on YouTube).
JR I am Richman, Jeremy I did the Men's Weekend [EM305] in June of 2001, with me is Milt Evans, he did his Men's Weekend [EM043] back in August 1983. We're here with some men off-camera, we're here to learn from Milt about how to be more effective at enrolling men into the Men's Weekend {hereafter "SMW" -RM}.
JR [0:24] Milt has a phenomenal reputation over the years for being a master enroller, and also, very persistent at it, and we all have occasion to be grateful to him. I know that I have been very inspired by you, Milt, in the matter of enrollment, in the conversations we've had over the years, and the first two men that I put into SMW are out of a conversation that we had, oh no, it was something I heard from another man, that you said to him. So we're creating this tape as a legacy, for Milt really, and also as a resource for all the men who are in the circle now, and to come later.
JR [1:03] So, thanks for doing this.
ME You're welcome. You said "persistent and successful". Those are the same thing. That's not two different things! (laughs)
JR So, for the record, how many men have you sponsored in SMW?
ME 124.
JR 124 — and how many more do you reckon you've been instrumental in [bringing to SMW]?
ME At least twice as many.
JR I know the answer to this, but, going back to 1983, have you always been that effective, fluid, —
ME (laughs) No!
JR So how did that come about?
ME I did the EST training in 1977, and then, did Landmark's 6-month enrollment training in the winter 1980-81, and uh, you know, I was as bad at it as it was possible to be.
ME [2:07] I was kind of proud of being 0 for 300. You know? (laughs) And then I finally enrolled somebody. So, it was a long [time], after that I had 5 or 10 people that I [brought to the] EST training, and then I did SMW, and my effectiveness went way up. I just kept coming, I was going to enrollment events in the years after I did SMW.
ME [2:32] I guess I joined the enrollment team in 1985, and I really did feel like a stop sign or a yield sign in a busy intersection. The event was going on around me, and I had no idea what to do. So, no, I did not start — (laughing)
ME It's like anything else, it becomes easy as you get good at it, but [at] first, your fingers hurt when you start playing the guitar.
JR [3:00] I know, when I first heard about you, what sorta went through my head was, He is good at it, but I couldn't. I was getting my set of "no" [answers] as I went out to try [enrollment]. Even today, do men say no to you?
ME Of course. It's a low-percentage game. If you — I think there's a dating guru who says his success rate, approaching women, just talking to women, is 19%, and he's proud of it. I think, 10 percent is good.
ME If you think 10% is good, then when you get 9 no's in a row, you're not bothered by it at all.
JR That actually is what made the difference from me, when I heard that [advice], second-hand, from you. It gave me the courage to go out and ask 30 men. My ratio is 15-to-1.
ME [3:57] It's not a problem with you — it's a question of whether the other person is open to, a new possibility.
JR [4:04] What's great. (pause) What do you do when a man says no to you? I know that you persist with him in some way, not right away perhaps, but —
ME Well, if it's a real no, I thank him and talk with him about something else. I try to determine if it's a real no.
JR How do you do that?
ME Ask, do you want to talk about this again in the future? And, usually they do.
JR [4:30] When would you make a note to follow up with that man, if he said, he was open —
ME Ask him. How big is right now? Not right now. How "big" is "right now". {The man has said "not right now", and Milt is asking, "how many days, or weeks, or whatever, would I wait until it is no longer 'right now'?" -RM}
ME The most recent answer I got on that was "two months". But sometimes it's two weeks, or can you call me on Monday, or, I'm in graduate school and I'll be out in 2 1/2 years, whatever the person's reality is.
JR So, it could be two years, or 6 months — so you make a note in your calendar?
ME Sure. The idea is to get him to be honest with himself about, is he considering this honestly, or not? I don't care — I don't need to know. He needs to know. He needs to know, I'm definitely not doing SMW for the next 6 months, because I'm starting a new business, and then talk to me.
ME I don't actually need the information. He does. (pause) It helps me, 'cause I do keep a list. —
JR [5:33] I did hear of one time, and perhaps it's happened more than once with you, where you met a man, met him for the first time in the afternoon, and he came to your team meeting in that very same evening, and —
ME I don't remember that, but I do remember a man who did the Weekend that evening — because somebody had asked him to talk to me, and we met at Burlington Mall for lunch, and, the context was his struggle in his marriage, and I recommended SMW, and he said he couldn't do that, and — it was that evening, it wasn't unreasonable to say he couldn't do it.
ME So we talked for a couple hours, and then he said, how much is that weekend again? (laughs) So, we ended up — my wife took care of his dog, and I drove him to meet the bus, and he filled out his paperwork on the way to the bus.
ME That [was] his generousity and openness. I just provided the opportunity. — Not to minimize that, but —
JR [6:35] When you start a conversation with a man, how do you begin it?
ME I ask him if he has done the SMW.
JR It's that simple.
ME "Have you done the Sterling Men's Weekend?" Unless it is obvious that he hasn't — recently I was at New Year's Eve party, and I knew the man's wife had done the Women's Weekend. So I said, I know your wife did the Women's Weekend — are you, gonna do the Men's Weekend?
ME [7:03] Because I want to know right away, if he's open to it at all. Because, in the example I like to use, if you ask me to go on a wilderness trip, the answer is no — it doesn't matter if we're going to China, or Colorado or South America, I'm not going! So — and many people are just not going to do personal growth workshops, it doesn't matter what it is, or how much it costs — So, let's find out if it's a flat no.
JR [7:32] If he says, "what is the Men's Weekend?", how do you go about describing it? — He says: "uhh, no I haven't, what is that?"
ME It's a workshop for about 150 to 200 men, it takes place over a weekend a couple times a year, and its — purpose is to help you find the source of your power, and manifest it in your life.
JR That's really a simple way, very straightforward, and without an overlay of, either mysticism, or —
ME I'm not saying that — as the "right answer" — what I just said — it's just an example of trying to answer the question honestly. What I'm really doing is trying to answer the question honestly, given the listening of the person I'm talking to. So it might come out differently in another example.
JR So, I understand it's — it might be different depending on the man, and where you are, and how he strikes you —
ME And whetehr he's — interested in his marriage, his relationship with his son, or his career, or self-esteem, or — why is he interested in this? At all?
JR [8:43] What I hear in this so far, in part, is you're actually very curious. You're not bringing something to him and trying to bludgeon him into doing it, or, get him to realize how good it would be for him, you're actually interested and curious about his life, and whether it would work for him.
ME [9:01] The whole pushing, bludgeoning, thinking that I know thing — If you keep, if you stay in this "enrollment" activity for a while, it will beat that out of you, you know so that you're —
ME In a network marketing thing that I'm doing, they say, amateurs try to convince people, and experts, just sort. We're just looking for people who would want to do SMW if they knew what it was. They don't know what it is, but if they knew what it was and what it would do for them, would they want to do it? Some of them would. You're trying to find those people. You're just looking to find them.
JR [9:48] I think you answered this, [what was] the shortest time you remember, between when you met a man and registered — that was that time [[you met a man on the Friday of the SMW and brought him to the bus later that same day]]
ME Yes [that was the shortest time.]
(end of video segment part 1)
JR Okay. Are you comfortable, at ease, internally, in all of your conversations, do you ever walk away shaken, or--?
ME Yes, I frequently hang up the phone and do some kind of (wave hands) energy, or cry, or whatever (nods affirmatively)
JR So —
ME (laughs) I'm comfortable and at ease — sometimes! Sometimes I actually am. But, nowhere near all the time.
JR I think, like a lot of men that have great expertese, you always make it look easy, whenever you speak of it when I am present.
ME Well, anything that you get good at, looks easy. I mean, in fact, anything is easy, once you're not doing all the stuff that doesn't work. Just — it's like any other skill — you have to be willing to just — do it.
ME You know, the dating gurus will tell you to go, approach a hundred women in public, and ask them for the time, or directions, you know, you go to the mall and ask them where the shoe store is, or whatever. You gotta do that. And you know, some of them are going to be rude, or offended or scared, or something like that — but for the most part, people are polite, and welcoming and fridnely. And you need to find that out, so that your inner child isn't scared to do it anymore. So when you're completely not scared to go up to a stranger and ask where is the shoe store, you're ready to go to the next step, and you know — (laughs)
JR [1:31] So, you've already answered this too, but I want to talk about it — so if you were to have 20 conversations with men about the SMW, maybe with 20 different man, or 10 conversations each with two men, what would your expectations be, is that 10 percent?
ME Yes.
JR It could be either way, you could talk with 20 men and get 2 men to do it, or you could talk with 10 men twice, or —
ME Well, no — If I'm talking to them twice then they already — I know and they know that they're considering doing it. If they're not doing it, they've been sorted out so --.
JR When I mean twice, I mean that you could be following up with him at his request in two months.
ME Right. So now maybe it's 20% or 30% — because he already said yes.
JR So when your 10%
ME I'm not just beating on him again.
JR Your 10% then is for men that you start conversations with, you find that about one in ten wind up —
ME Yeah — I mean that's a guess, but--
JR Yes, I understand, Okay.
JR [2:40] Well, it's a lot of conversations — do you ever — when I talk to three men and get no's I start to get a little discouraged, and I have to generate myself around that--
ME I do too (laughs) yeah
JR How do you do that, how do you regenerate your —
ME What I like to do, to sort of manage my feeling about it, there's actually there's a couple things that I do. One thing is, if something good happens, I stop. So, if I'm making a series of phone calls, and somebody says yes to being at an event, I'm done! (laughs) I go play a videogame or do something fun! Because I want my internal programming to think that this is fun. So if something good happens, I stop. I persist when it is not working. So that's one thing.
ME [3:30] Another thing is this business of finding out right away if the person's open to this or not. The effect of that is that, I'm essentially spending 100% of my time talking to people that are interested. Therefore it's fun, therefore over time, I'm more — by letting go of the no's right away, you save yourself a great deal of stress, and them too.
JR So if you're at some gathering, and you ask a man, have you done the SMW — in a conversation that, whatever comes of that, and he says no, or he doesn't seem interested, or you say, or maybe you persue it a little bit, or you say would you like to hear about it? and he says I really don't think so, you just, that's it.
ME That's it.
JR Maybe you'll complete the conversation with him, if what you're out at that event to do, is to talk to lots of men, is just go find another man.
ME Yeah. You want to deal with people with 100% respect. Assuming that he's an expert on his life.
JR That's great.
JR [4:32] So, we talked about this earlier. Could you give us an example, or a couple examples, of how conversations go, that do wind their way forward to a man coming to a meeting or registering?
ME I don't really know how to do that. I can dance, but I can't talk about it. Let's see, uh — (pause) I don't know, let's create some kind of a real example.
JR Okay, so we'll try — if you were speaking with me, and perhaps, I was talking I don't know even how you create the openings, although I'm sure you do —
ME Tell me about, what we're trying to accomplish here. What was the question again?
JR I'd like to, hear what — how you are able to manifest the respect and guide the conversation according to what a man might say, towards the resolution. So, if a man were in some conversation with you about, how he was getting a divorce, or something like that, I don't know, maybe that would be an opening for you to say, have you done the SMW? And he might say, what's that, and you might answer the way you did earlier. Or maybe you shift it a little bit towards relationship.
ME [6:08] It's a weekend for men — is that something you're open to, that you'd consider doing?
JR Yeah, I might be.
ME Okay! The next one is in May. (pause)
JR (pause) In May, what-- (laugh)
ME See, the goal of enrollment, is to get them to take the initiative.
JR I see.
ME So — if you're talking a lot, that ain't it.
JR I, what just happened there, is you said the next one's in May, you left me with nothing to do but ask me a question, which is a little, I don't understand, what is it.
ME And it's not a trick! It's really coming from — (pause) we're — it's not a trick. The next one's in May. I want to see what you're going to say.
JR Well, it isn't a trick, I can see, it's turning it into a conversation, instead of a pursuit.
ME Right.
JR The other man has to show some interest, or else, you are just in an untenable position.
ME What would you need to know. What would you want to know. I can tell you a lot about it. I won't do that. I'll spare you that. But, you know, I can — there's this weekend for men, and I think it really might help with your divorce, a lot. Exactly how, I don't know, but certainly it's made a huge difference in thousands of people's marriages. So — what would help you make a decision?
ME [7:44] And, you know, people say things like,
I don't think the baseball season is over yet, I have three boys —
or whatever.
How much is it?
JR So let's take it, I have three boys, with the divorce going on, driving them to baseball and soccer and so on, I can't see doing it right now.
ME Are you sure about that — if it were going to make a huge difference, would you consider working around it, or are you, would you definitely going to wait until the fall?
JR Well, you're telling me it's going to rescue my marriage in some way?
ME It might, yeah. And, it might make a big difference in how your marriage feels, or in how you're parenting afterwards — yeah. It's going to make a huge difference.
ME And it might or it might not be — is that what you want to explore? Do you want to explore the value? Or do you want to ask some other question?
JR Well, since you're asking me about whether, to consider doing it sooner, even though it would mean, messing up one of my weekends, it's kind of hard to believe it would make a difference with myself and my wife, the way things have come to.
ME Okay.
JR So, umm,
ME If you want to explore that, there's lots of men you could talk to, and meetings you could come to.
JR Is it just divorced men, or is it--
ME [9:20] No, it's all men — the overall result of the Weekend, I believe, is feeling better about yourself, which empowers you in everything you're involved in — career, or whatever. We're just talking about this divorce, because it's a situation for you right now.
ME My question is — when you look in your heart — do you want to find out about it? Or do you, want to find a way to avoid it and not do this weekend in May. You know, honesty time. Because we're going to go with what you want. (pause) Do you know?
JR I'm going to step out of character here, because I've got what I wanted from this conversation. It's just marvelous, how much you're basically just in the inquiry, —
ME Okay. So that was a good example.
JR It was a great example.
(end of video segment part 2)
JR I know that, you want--
ME One point, by the way is, you want to have this question with one person at his time — not when he's with his two drinking buddies, or his wife, or his kids — it needs to be private, this kind of conversation, because people need to have enough space to be honest.
JR And perhaps not in a venue where men are in the middle of other things, whether it's in the middle of bowling or drinking, or —
ME You might sometimes be able to take him aside and set up an opportunity to have lunch next week or something, you don't have the whole conversation right there.
JR How would you do that, if it came up, if you were at some other event, and a man happens to mention problems with his marriage, and this just wasn't the time to get [into it] how would you introduce the topic then, in order to set up something?
ME [0:57] It's the same thing — would you like to get together to talk about it.
JR It being his marriage? Or —
ME No, the Weekend. The possibility of the weekend.
JR The Weekend, and he would say what's that? And you would say this isn't, I don't want to take us away from what you're doing but would you like to set up a time to talk about it.
ME Right. I'm a marriage counselor, so it might be a potential client. I recommend the Landmark Forum to a lot of people. So, I don't know where it's going to go, there's more than one way this might help him. It doesn't have to be the SMW.
JR [1:33] So, what I hear in that, which is important to me, is you're actually open to the possibility, that the SMW not only might he not choose to do it, but it might not be right for him —
ME Exactly.
JR --at this time in his life.
ME Ding!
JR ... which seems very powerful to me.
JR [1:51] So, I know, in our conversations, that you would like men to be aware, that having these conversations isn't just about discovering, dissolving your own barriers to having them, or becoming better encollers, or getting men in the SMW, but to have some awareness that, it's actually, I think you've used the word dangerous.
ME Dangerous — well, sometimes I use a little bit dramatic language. But you do need to be a bit careful. For example, it's not appropriate in general, to approach people at work. It's just not appropriate. Cause if we all bring our individual thing that we're excited about to work, work becomes not safe, and — so you might have a friend at work, and talk to him at lunch about it, but in general, you have to be careful about bringing it to work. Just an example.
ME [2:41] Some people have had cult experiences. Of course, we know that this is very wholesome, a perfectly safe thing but they don't know that. They might over-react. You have to be careful a little bit.
JR You might run across someone that's heard of it, and has already decided that it's a cult.
ME Or whatever.
JR Or whatever.
ME So, it's a little bit risky. You have to be willing to take risks. And try to keep them small. (laughs)
JR In terms of the potential consequences.
ME Yeah.
JR [3:23] For me, that element of it — both the personal risk that it takes, for us to keep at this, against all of the rejection and the no's and so on, as well as the potential consequences in the real world, it just sort of is a reminder of a larger, don't want to call it context but goings on here, it's — don't want to call it a battle, but it's a cause that we're fighting for. Not — we're winning it-- we win and lose sort of man by man, but there's something at the core here, that's important to many of us to bring into the world.
ME [4:01] Right. You want to have as big a context that you possibly can. For many people their religious faith or their spirituality is their major big context. You know — we have a planet here with — 3 billion men on it, 6 billion people altogether — and it's sort of — okay it's my planet. Now what am I going to do. One option is to, bring this kind of possibility to people. Because, it's going to make a huge difference. If my project, is to make some little difference on the Earth, before I'm done — I might choose to write songs and move people — and I know men who do that.
ME Enrollment is one very high-leverage way. With a couple of conversations, and showing up at a couple of meetings — you can make an enormous difference in a person's life, way way way more efficiently than anything else I would have to bring to the table. So, the return on investment is dramatic. And the context is, however big you can stand to make it. You know, think globally, act locally.
JR Yeah. Okay.
JR [5:30] I am going to take the opportunity to read two quotes that have meant a lot to me, on the subject of courage. {I have substituted the exact original wording and added the author's name for the first quote -RM}
Courage doesn't always roar. Sometimes courage is the quiet
voice at the end of the day saying, "I will try again tomorrow."
- Mary Anne Radmacher
JR [The 2nd quote is one that] I suppose might be heard in this context as [being] rather dark:
I wanted you to see what real courage is, instead of getting the
idea that courage is a man with a gun in his hand. It's when you
know you're licked before you begin but you begin anyway and you
see it through no matter what. You rarely win, but sometimes you
do.
- Atticus Finch, the honest lawyer in Harper
Lee's 1962 novel To Kill a Mockingbird
ME Okay. Life is like that. We're — (laughs) you know?
ME All improvement occurs in time, one guru says, and therefore is temporary. All improvement is temporary. If you make things better, eventually, it's going to get washed away. (laughs) It is.
JR It's like building a sand castle —
ME We can still make it beter right?
JR — you don't have the sand castle for any amount of time if you don't build it.
ME You're licked before you begin.
ME If that's a way of leting go of the attachment to, quote, success it's a good thing.
JR [6:54] Is there anything else you'd like to say for the men who are here today, of the men who are going to be watching this video.
ME There's probably a lot, and I have no idea. So, if somebody has a question, or something, I mean —
JR We'll go into that, but I just wondered if there's anything particularly on your mind, in your heart, that you wanted to say.
ME [7:20] Enrollment is generosity. There's no way to make it make sense in terms of personal survival. So, we need to take care of personal survival. Make sure you're making a living, protecting your family, then what are you going to do with your sort of hobby time. There's a lot of options — be on a drug hotline or whatever. One thing you can do is, present this opportunity to peple, and some of them will say yes.
ME It is a high leverage way to cause good things to happen. But it's not particularly — the benefit to you is marginal. Doing it for your own benefit isn't going to last long. At the same time, it's not some nobility either. The safer — Men are under great attack right now. Men have given away their, a lot of what they had in the world. They are ridiculed in the media constantly, and many men feel alone, or just not okay but not sure why. The SMW is an opportunity to do something about that. The more that you can do for your environment, if you are responsible for some man doing SMW, his children are going to forever benefit. They have a strong dad, and hopefully a strong mom too.
JR [9:22] Thank you. I want to thank you, from all of us, and also on a personal level, for your courage and your persistence over the years.
JR I also want to make sure that everyone knows, as you said earlier, no longer have you sponsored a lot of men into SMW, and helped them, but you've also, I'm sure you have an equally high total if not higher, for helping people find their way to the Landmark Forum, to Insight and to many other workshops.
ME Right,
JR So it's just phenomenal.
(end of video segment part 3)
JR What I want to do [as] my concluding remarks, is accentuate what you alluded to — the ripples that go out into the world, in all directions — there are men you have sponsored, that have gone and sponsored other men--
ME Sure
JR --and all of their families, their wives, their families, their kids, some of those men, their wives would do the Women's Weekend. I have a man on my team who has done a lot for me, that you were the sponsor of, so you made a huge difference in my life. I want to acknowledge you for that — I don't know if our New England Region would be a region at all, (laughing) it might be a division, if not for all of your efforts over the years, in doing this.
JR I'm saying that not just for you, but for all the men that inspire — you just never know which man that you — there is some man, presumably, that introduced you to the SMW, and he gets all of your score on his score card.
ME That's right. That's Danial Grau. Thank you Daniel.
JR Thank you Daniel. (laughs) We can all say that. You've touched so many lives and most of them don't even know you exist — and that's the way it is.
ME Uh-huh.
JR Thank you.
ME You're welcome.
JR So, that's it for the interview part of this.
JR [1:29] We have several other men here and we'll just go into questions and answers. [...]
KP [1:50] {Kevin Pammett, EM348} One of the things that seemed key, when you first started talking, is, when you first ask a man, is it clear that you want to do this?
ME Will you consider doing the Weekend.
KP Will you consider doing the Weekend.
ME It's a very specifric question, yes.
KP How do you know when no is really no.
ME I ask him.
KP When he says no — do you just always take it as, okay he said no, that's it? Isn't it true that--
ME No, I ask him!
KP --[lots of men] say no, but really they want to be talked into it? Or, they say so little about it, that they say no even though they're not, really just take no as no?
ME My accountant said he was interested, and it took several months, and he finally said, I'm not going to do that weekend Milt, I was just being polite! So you get so you know when it's really a no, and when it's not.
JR I think, what Pammett was asking [was,] if you're at some event and you ask your question, and the man says no, I'm not interested in that, do you just say okay, and move on?
ME Sometimes I say, are you sure.
JR And if he says, yeah, I'm sure — that's it.
ME Yeah.
KP How about if he's not so clear. He may say, well, not really, I'm really really busy. Is that a no?
ME I don't think so.
KP Or is that his busy head talking, and actually he's interested.
ME Well, he just doesn't know.
KP Right.
JR [3:16] Let me turn that into a different question. What would you say in that circumstance — a man says, I don't know, I can't think about it, I'm really busy.
ME Okay, do you want to think about it later.
JR Well, I don't know, I can't even think about that either.
ME Okay. Well, I'm very willing to drop it.
JR Are you saying that to us, or are you telling him. Or both.
ME Both. Yeah.
KP Do you really drop it, or do you sort of make a mental note, this man might--
ME No, I really drop it.
KP You don't come back to him 2 months later.
ME See, there's 3 billion men. So, we're going to find the easy ones first. When we get done with all the easy ones.
JP If it's one in ten, that's really only 300 million though.
ME Right! And so far, maybe 60 or 70 thousand men have done the Weekend — so —
ME [4:11] I'm not trying to be flip. Professionals sort. You don't try to change his mind. We can, you know, interact, and give him more information, and of course we're going to be encouraging, and — charming even — but we're not trying to change his mind. We're trying to help him find out.
PS [4:45] {Peter Schultz, EM361} I have a concern about my own monkeys getting in the way of me having a discussion with a man. ME Right. PS My own fears, doubts, insecurities during my weekend, seem to be prevalent during discussion with another man. I don't know how to ask a question.
ME Well — you're recognizing that engaging in enrollment is inherently a personal growth activity for you. The good side of that is, you're going to learn and grow. And there's a thing called growing pains. (laugh) You're going to confront and get over your own limitations, and then be less limited. So —
PS The question I have is — I don't want to send this man to do something that was as hard as it was for me.
ME How about having more respect for him? He might not have the same issues that you do, first of all. We don't know that. And secondly — he can handle it. You did. (laugh)
ME We're not going to trick anybody into doing this. And we're not going to recommend it to people who obviously shouldn't. So, if you have a perfectly normal, ordinary man, who thinks that this might benefit him — let him do it.
[6:17] {An unseen man, here called "M1", asks Schultz the following: -RM}
M1 Do you have anything in your heart, towards the man who enrolled you, into such a hard and painful experience, that you haven't cleared?
PS No.
M1 You hit the nail on the head when you said — I did it. You immediately —
ME It's hard! My SMW was very hard for me. I was — terrified. And sometime on Sunday of the weekend, I realized, okay I'm scared, but I'm not actually in danger. I'm just scared. And I lightened up and started to enjoy the thing. But it took me 24 hours — It's okay to enjoy it from the get-go, but that wasn't my experience.
PS [7:06] So is there anything you can offer me, for me to get over that feeling getting in the way of talking about the Weekend.
M2 {Another unidentified man} Maybe time. Maybe asking more men.
ME Your own personal barriers, are no reason to stop.
(end of video segment part 4)
NH {Norm Hillsgrove, EM227} One of the things, I'm Hillsgrove, one of the things that I got from listening to you is, you never really talk about the SMW. What you talk about is what he could get if he did it, and you kept-- you were more personal with him finding out where he was, rather than even like, talking about the weekend or even trying to sell the weekend, or push it.
ME Right. Right.
NH You kept bringing it back to him.
ME Right. Cause that's the issue of the moment. A little later, if he starts asking about the weekend, I might tell him some stuff.
NH That's like where the fear comes up, when you try to talk about the weekend, when he hasn't even said he wanted to do it, or interested in it.
ME Right, right right. (pause) We're not — not trying to convince, not trying to change his mind. Not withholding the information either.
JR [0:54] Well that brings up a question for me — how do you handle a man's questions when they say, well, you know, what happened at the Weekend?, what are they going to do? What is the content of it?
ME Well, first of all it's confidential. The weekend itself. And that does a couple of things, it preserves the, um, personal safety of the people in the Weekend. You know, it's okay for you to cry, or, you know, call your father a son of a bitch, or whatever you might do, knowing that — it's going to be confidential.
ME [1:28] And the other thing is, the Weekend is a series of events and conversations, and like a good movie, you don't want to know what the surprise is going to be, because there are surprises. So, one thing I like to advise people is, don't look it up. You know, you can look it up on the Internet, and find a bunch of information — some of which is true (laughs), and some of which is completely crazy and not true. Um. You know, don't do that. Just go have the experience. Right. And, you know, if you're going to look it up, then we're done with the conversation, because the Weekend's got to do with you trusting men.
ME [2:10] And, so — um, and with that said, it is a series of events of conversations that are designed to — provoke whatever is difficult for you about, being a man, and about other men. So if other men piss you off, you're going to be pissed off in the Weekend.
ME [2:30] In my case I was terrified. Why? Because I was terrified before I walked in there. It's just (laughs) a high stress environment that brought that to the surface for me. That's all. So uh,
JR [2:45] I have a question, a little off topic, are you aware of Jim Belushi's book, Real Men Don't Apologize?
ME Yeah, I got the book.
JR Have you ever had occasion, it seems like that would be, could be a helpful resource, if a man had either looked things up on the web, or thought it was a cult, or whatever, to be able to say, well look, Jim Belushi did it, he recommends it.
ME Yeah. Anything's a possible resource I guess. I wouldn't go there, unless I was, sort of had to, but —
ME [3:16] See, the thing about enrollment is that, you're the — the person doesn't know anything about whatever workshop you're talking about. They're going to enroll in you. So, all the talking about the workshop, and what they might get out of it, and stuff, is a smokescreen over the relationship that's being created between you and this person.
JR [3:41] I can see how, just, as we speak and I'm imagining just how easy it is to get attached to a particular man doing it.
ME Yeah.
JR And then I become like a limpet mine, (pantomimes something) (laughs)
ME How can we get, this, you know
JR And, by keeping the larger context in mind, of the 300 million men that are going to do it, um,
ME (nods yes)
JR It's like, okay, maybe this man will later, or maybe he won't but, I'm actually, in the time I spend with him, I might be able to get men to register, the 300 million.
ME Right.
JR I mean, that's sort of a, that's just a way of thinking of it in terms of, what the higher — the higher goal, the higher purpose here is, it's not for any one man, unless he's particularly important to you, in your life, I suppose but —
ME Yeah. — yeah.
ME [4:30] I learned somewhere, uh, actually from the Landmark, enrollment program, that, uh, relationship is created. You know, it's something that you just, bring to the table. It doesn't come from somewhere. So, we can, it's possible to create relationship once and for all. People say, all men are my brothers, that's one way to look, okay? All men are my brothers. So this man that I just met is my brother. You just haven't met him yet. So then I'm interested in him, and I'm on his side. And I'm actually bringing some information that I have, to benefit his thinking. And, you know, he thinks that I'm a quote stranger. So I can't him over that. But I can know he's already my brother. Or whatever spiritual context you have for that. So, it turns out if you approach people in that way, you know, you just take on that you're already, there's nothing to — we don't have to go to college together for 4 years, or, you know, get to know — men are immediately related, if you just let it happen. And men have a natural thing, where they try to like each other. You put two men together, the first thing they're going to do is try to find a way to like each other. Anybody.
ME [5:48] So, let yourself do that, and let him do that. He's trying to find a way to like you. And, liking is, uh, mostly similarities. So, you know, we're both, uh, into golf, or, we're both, from Connecticut, or whatever it is. You know, you're just trying to find a way to like each other. That's the important thing that's going on. And the talk, the conversation about the weekend is just — uh... (pause) content.
ME [6:26] He, but he enrolls in you. And it's important to be responsible for that. In order to do this and be successful at it, you know, (snaps fingers), you know it's a curse, but oh well, you're going to have to feel good about yourself. (pause) (laughs)
JR What I'm getting, which is the, the challenge for me, is that I have to feel good about myself, even if the man says he doesn't want what I have, in effect.
ME Right. That happens a lot, you know, my wife's a singer. I'm not going to go sing. So — you know — (to audience) whatcha got?
M3 {a third unidentified man} [7:04] I, um, a lot of times, in certain contexts we keep it personal, I know, my experience is, whatever whatever — and there's also the element of, um, speaking about — the man's — issues.
ME Right.
M3 Opposite of keeping it personal, for me. So is there an element, uh, I guess you just need to go along with that
ME Keeping it personal as a way to avoid preaching — okay, that's good. But it's not personal. It's not about you at all. It's about him. You're irrelevant. You're a billboard, saying, this way to the SMW. It's very not personal. And then, to the extent that you bring your own stuff in, maybe a circumstance arises where you can share something, that would clarify, or calm some fear, or provide some information. But that's just a service.
M3 [8:04] That would be an answer to a question probably though right?
ME It's so not about you.
(end of video segment part 5)
KP {Kevin Pammett, EM348} I'd like to ask a question, that's not about enrolling a man for the Weekend.
ME Okay.
KP So, I'll just make that hypothetical, I have a man who did do the Weekend, and has done the program, so is that the point of trying to decide does he want to join the team or not? And he's basically doesn't really want to.
ME Okay.
KP How to I enroll a man into making that decision and going for it?
ME Don't. (pause) Just honor what he wants. (pause)
KP Really?
ME Yeah. Trust him about his life. You know? (pause)
KP What — so, okay, so my reaction is, yeah, but he doesn't know what he's missing.
ME Yeah, that's true. He's made up this shit about there's no value to being on a team.
ME Yeah. I know.
KP And he has-- he's been on a point team, so that one thing, didn't enroll him.
ME I know.
KP Really, just let him go, don't even have a conversation?
ME (pause) Well, you might have a conversation after you let it go. But you have to do the letting go step.
KP So, talk about that -
ME It's hard, it's hard to — talk about this theoretically in a, without a real example, but, um, you know, we're coming from honoring him really. And, you know, 6 months later when you bring it up again, he'll trust you, because you let it go the first time. This — your agenda to have him be on a team, (pause) sucks. You know, like, you just, don't you feel that way, if someone is persuing you about doing something? And you know you don't want to?
KP [1:48] I've actually, I've actually had situations where I know I was persued, they were persistent, and damnit, in the end, they got me to do it, and I'm glad that they did.
ME Yeah, okay. So there's a paradox there.
KP Yeah.
ME Okay.
KP I actually have two men in mind. Who are in exactly that situation. They're very seriously, considering dropping out. And, you know, when I talk to them, what they say is like the conversation in the first place. Oh, I'm too busy, I've got this divorce that I have to do, I've got my kids, I've got this, I've got that, and I just don't see the value of being on a team.
ME [2:19] Right. So, life is full of opportunities. There's way more opportunities than you can possibly, even know about, never mind do. There's a lot of opportunities. And, you're, you're, perfectly right that this is exactly the same as asking somebody about doing the Weekend. And therefore the question is, will you consider, being on a men's team? Guy says no. Then you talk about the Red Sox. (pause) That's it!
JR But, from what you said earlier, if the guy says I don't know I'm so busy —
ME Right.
JR That's not a no.
ME Yeah, okay. Do you want to talk about it? (pause) No, I don't want to talk about it. Or — you know? (laughs)
JR (laughing) okay. So it really is finding out, just continually finding out more, helping him to discover--
ME That's right! Helping him to discover.
KP If I'm going to have a conversation to help him discover his barriers about joining a team — that's not taking the no to be a no.
JR Well, what I'm hearing, is there's a difference between a no, and something that's like I'm too busy, or I don't see it working, or I don't see the value, —
ME Right, right (pause) you know?
NH If he doesn't want to talk about it, There's no sense to talk about it.
ME [3:31] I had a friend once, I don't know if this is relevant, who said, I'll do your Men's Weekend if you'll go with me to see Aliens 2.
KP (laughs)
ME Well — I don't go to fear-based movies. It's something that I just don't do. I keep my ecology of my inner self, why would I generate fear, in my mind, on purpose? This is nuts! And I said, sure, okay! (laughs) And you know, I cleared myself beforehand, it's just colored pictures on the wall, it doesn't matter — and you know, it was fine! And, he did the Weekend! Hey! It was great!
ME I'm just saying, it can be a negotiation. He knew he was sticking me. Right?
KP Yeah.
ME Yeah. So — I decided to let that go.
M4 {another unidentified man} [4:24] So what I'm seeing, what you just said was, your strong commitment to, to serving him. Because even if you talk about it, it's traumatic just to be in a fear-based situation, so you definitely made it about him, not about you. And you gave up something dear to you —
ME Yeah.
M4 Yeah. So that just reminds me, for me to keep on making it about the other person, not me. And — be true to myself.
ME And it might not be worth it — if he had asked me something that I wasn't, you know, but — it's okay — I'll play ball.
JR Are there any other questions?
JR [5:06] In that case, we're going to call it a wrap. And again, thank you Milt.
ME Okay. You're welcome. Yeah, thanks for being interested in this, and, you know, trying to contribute something to the conversation about it. I appreciate that.
JR Okay.
M5 turn that machine off.
ME (laughs) Okay.
(end of video segment part 6)
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